BY THE NUMBERS: 382 -- The number of home runs hit by Sox outfielder Jim Rice during his 16-year career, which was tops among AL hitters during that span.
Seriously, isn't it time to get over the fact that he spent a good deal of time being a douche bag? His numbers speak for themselves. He's a Hall of Famer.
17 comments:
I'm on the fence on this. I've always thought if there was a Hall of Very Good, Jim Ed would be the first guy inducted.
He's always been a fringe guy for me. A .298 BA is HOF worthy, but IMO what hurts him in the voter's eyes is no 3000 hits (2,452) and no 400 HR (382).
If he could have put together one more solid season resembling any of his seasons between '75 and '86, he'd have already had a plaque in Cooperstown.
The Sox fan in me wants him in. It sucks to see him "down to his last strike", but if it doesn't happen for him next year, I'll always think he was one additional good season away from enshrinement.
Oh, and the HOF voters are a bunch of the R word. Carry on...
I guess my biggest argument was what was listed in my original post - he hit more HRs over his career than any in his era.
He was the most prolific HR hitter of his time, which deserves a spot to me. Throw the artificial statistic ceilings to the rug here.
Fair enough, but if the hottest girl in the club is a 6, it doesn't mean she's hot. :)
Your analogy leaves out the fact that we're talking about professional athletes, so you'd have to use comparitive talent. "If the hottest chick at Hugh Hefner's Playboy Mansion is a 6..."
Lavinius would still bang her - WITHOUT QUESTION!
In this case, Hefner's mansion is in Cooperstown, NY.
In said mansion is a plethora of 9s and 10s. Ruth, Mays, Clemente, Aaron, Mantle, Teddy Ballgame, DiMaggio, and so on. We're talking top level snatch only reserved for the likes of Tom Brady.
Rice is that girl in the room where the decision to F her is entirely arbitrary. Some guys would say, "Yeah, I'd do her." Others would say, "No way." A good handful would say, "maybe after a few beers..."
Point being, this is the Hall of FAME, meaning, a sanctuary reserved for only top level and near top level pooty.
Rice was a tummy tuck and a boob job away from ascending to the cusp of that second tier.
Quite frankly, I'm surprised you didn't cite Tony Perez as a reason Rice should be in the Hall.
A quick side-by-side comparison
SEASONS PLAYED
Rice: 16, Perez: 23
GAMES PLAYED
Rice: 2089, Perez: 2777
AT-BATS
Rice: 8225, Perez: 9778
BATTING AVG
Rice: .298, Perez: .277
HR
Rice: 382, Perez: 379
RBI
Rice: 1451, Perez: 1652
HITS
Rice: 2452, Perez: 2732
ON-BASE%
Rice: .352, Perez: .341
Rice is superior in the career BA and on-base% categories, two cats that aren't predicated on longevity. Rice is even +3 in career HRs despite playing in 7 fewer seasons, ~700 less games, and 1553 fewer ABs.
I don't believe Perez should be in the Hall. He's a "Hall of Very Good" guy along with Jimmy Rice. But I'd be curious to know what criteria was used to vote him in yet keep Rice out.
Rice: ROY, AL MVP
Perez: 7-time all-star
Rice: 8-time all-star
Perez: Top 10 BA twice in career
Rice: Top 10 BA six times
Rice led league in HRs three times and was in top 10 HRs seven times
The list goes on. The only major category Tony Perez EVER lead in was Grounded Into Double Plays. Rice was tops in several categories over several years.
From friend's friend #1:
I heard this debate raging on ESPN radio all week. Most people say the WS ring as part of the famed Big Red Machine for Perez makes the difference plus the positions IB vs. OF.
Also, to be fair you should consider defense, etc to see the whole picture.
My father thinks the problem with the HOF is it’s too watered down anyway and you could argue many guys currently in don’t belong.
The argument against Rice is he doesn’t belong in the HOF of Ruth, Gehrig, Ted Williams, Hank Aaron, etc. but sure, he might belong in the HOF of Tony Perez, Gary Carter, or Phil Niekro and Don Sutton.
And don’t let him on his Don Sutton rant. The guy almost lost 300 games, was never dominant, didn’t strike fear in anyone, and was strictly in the hall because people get too hung up on stats.
From friend's friend #2:
oh boy, i have to confess I was 10 years old when the comparison of Rice vs Perez was at it's most fair level so I'm not an expert. I think if i had to pick one, i'd lean slightly towards Perez (btw -i was thinking this with the notion that Perez was not in the HOF either, i didn't realize he finally got in). My reason for saying Perez is skewed a bit towards the anecdotal comments i've heard, but not witnessed enough that he was considered the pre-eminent clutch hitter on the Reds and probably in baseball during the 70's. Again, I'm biased towards players who do things in the clutch, not that Rice wasn't but by all accounts few were Perez equal in that regard.
otherwise everything is pretty equal though Perez played in a little more pitcher-friendly era (the late 60's were notorious). if your friend would stop and take a look he'd realize they've been treated very similarly - Perez was denied many times and i'd assume if he got in it was by the skin of his teeth, and Rice has only been kept out by a couple percentage points, so it's not like the voting has a huge discrepancy. Rice was very unpopular in the media so that might account for the difference in vote.
Perez's best season was .317 BA / 40 HRs / 129 RBIs - all career highs (he did hit .328 in 183 ABs in 1985, but that doesn't count).
Rice's best season was .315 / 46 HRs / 139 RBIs, but hit over .300 in his career 7 times. (Perez only hit over .300 twice.)
Perez was fairly consistent, but never great.
This was my response to comments 9 and 10:
During a 12 year period from 1975 to 1986 in the American League, Rice was ranked:
1st in runs (1,098)
1st in hits (2,145)
1st in home runs (350)
1st in runs batted in (1,276)
1st in slugging percentage (.520)
1st in total bases (3,670)
1st in extra-base hits (752)
1st in go-ahead RBIs (325)
1st in multi-hit games (640)
4th in triples (73)
4th in batting average (.304)
1st in outfield assists (125)
Rice finished in the top five in MVP voting in 6 of those 12 years.
In 1978 Rice won the MVP and became the first American League player since Joe DiMaggio to finish with more than 400 total bases.
>From 1977-1979, Rice recorded 35-plus homers and 200-plus hits in each season, the only person in history to do that.
If you look at the entire major leagues over that same 12-year period, Rice still ranked first in RBIs, hits, total bases, go-ahead RBIs and multi-hit games, second in slugging, runs and extra-base hits (to Mike Schmidt), third in homers (to Schmidt and Dave Kingman), and second in outfield assists (to Dave Winfield).
And for all the "problems" he had in the field, he still managed to place 1st in outfield assists. Go figger!
As for the Rice wasn't "clutch" argument, in 1982, Rice grounded into 29 DPs, but he also had 97 RBIs, and batted .341 with RISP, and .320 with men on. In 1983, he had 126 RBIs, and batted .308 with RISP, and .305 with men on. The following year he set the MLB record for GIDPs, but he also knocked in 122 runs. In 1985, when he had 35 GIDPs, he still knocked in 103 RBIs, hitting .341 with RISP, and .294 with runners on. In 1986, he then hit .342 with RISP, and .339 with runners on.
As for him being unpopular in the media, certainly he isn't the only HOFer with that distinction and he won't be the last. His numbers speak for themselves, which are on par with other fringe HOFers, at a minimum.
More from the anti-Rice brigade:
Perez also played before Rice did- when hitting was even harder (i.e. 1968 for example)
and he won multiple rings and knocked in 90+ runs like 10 straight years
But I am not saying he was any better than Rice was
******
Rice also led the league in "outs" twice and GIDP's 4x- he accumulated those stats ala Cal Ripken- because he got a lot of at bats- it enabled him to get lots of hits but also make lots of outs and since he rarely walked
look- if he had 500 HR's I'd say fine but he only had 380 or so- obviousl there are enough "experts" that feel the sa way he'd be in already
maybe he'll get in next year
Cooch pretty much thinks this is amateur hour. And I, for one, tend to agree.
Facts and logic always bitchslap opinion and hyperbole.
I concur with Lavinius! Let's make plans to catch Rice's 2009 induction...
Exactly one year later, it comes full circle! See ya in Coocherstown, Cooch!
Let's do it!!!
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